Hello,
the license upgrade from old DSS V5 to new DSS V6 is not free :confused: ??
I think open-e has free minor and major updates for his customers? My OEM reseller already called me and said it will be free ...
Printable View
Hello,
the license upgrade from old DSS V5 to new DSS V6 is not free :confused: ??
I think open-e has free minor and major updates for his customers? My OEM reseller already called me and said it will be free ...
Open-E provides for free: 'updates' within one version!
Improving quality, removing bugs, adding some functionality, etc
This is why, we were never charging for updates within DSS v.5 or
iSCSI-R3... etc.
'Upgrade' is usually related to creating a new product!
Similar to other software manufacturers:
windows 2000 -> windows xp,
adobe cs2 -> adobe cs4
vmware vs3 -> vmware vs4
oracle 10 -> oracle 11
etc, etc...
Open-E does charge when deliver a major (!) change in technology, additional
functionality, different interface, installation media,...
Such upgrade charge is nothing new at Open-E, we did it in past by major
technology changes as well:
NAS -> NAS-XSR
NAS-XSR -> DSS
DSS -> DSS V6
Sorry for inconvenience caused.
I am very disappointed in this. I have only been an Open-E customer for 120 days, if I had realized that there was going to be a cost associated with keeping my virtually NIB product up to date I might have waited.
Also, I checked the comparison, you only offer 6 new features. This doesn't look like a "major upgrade" to me. I accept that the cost of doing business is increasing, and I also accept that it might be necessary to pay for your support contracts. But if those contracts are current then I don't see any point in charging for upgrades.
Also, you might offer free upgrades for anyone who bought the product recently (since 1/1/2009 for example).
My $0.02
Neal Leyendecker
I see where you are coming from but what DSS V6 will have in the future releases the DSS V5 could not do. Similar to Microsoft products,... try to upgrade from WSS 2003 to 2008, you will be amazed and the cost and not to mention the upgrade issues. I purchased a Windows XP many moons ago and then Vista came out. I asked them to give me this for free as if I waited 3 weeks more I could have received it and never got a reply..... but that is MS.
With DSS V6 we will be able to much more then DSS V5 and DSS V6 has been in development for 2 years now. Under the hood is allot more development then the DSS V5. Just like MS (but with free support), it is part of the sw evolution.
I won't argue with your logic, but in an apples-to-apples comparison this isn't like going from 2003 to 2008, the feature list upgrade for those product is hundreds of items deep.
Neal Leyendecker
Todd, the difference between dss and windows server is that the customer has some idea of when the End of Life (EOL) of the product is. Same for Linux distros or Firefox. The different linux kernels don't stop all maintenance releases once a new major kernel version is released. They keep providing maintenance and security updates for years afterwards. With Open-E, we have no idea what the EOL is. It could be a month, it could be two or three years. There needs to be some sort of release plan, some sort of contract with the customers.
Speaking of comparing to Windows: What if I buy a system with Windows Vista on it two weeks before Windows 7 comes out? I get a free upgrade voucher. There needs to be some framework, some level of trust between Open-E and the customer. Sure, we can whine to you, Todd, until you give us a free upgrade, but that's not how to build a successful, international business.
We have done much research on this and can argue the same. Many will just say that all sw manufactures should give their products for free for the life of the company not the life of the product and then it will end for the updates and so on. Anyway, your message is being viewed by many in the company and we thank you for your opinions. Please send any comments to info@open-e.com and let's use the forum for more technical needs to help others.
I agree that we should post the EOL on our products - this is being processed as we speak to put in place with management.
We can kick this around to no end and I wish MS gave me that voucher back when I got my system but they did not :( . Anyway we can argue to no end in sight and I would like for all to please send your comments to info@open-e.com so we can review them.
I understand the perspective from both sides here. However, in previous experiences with non-mainstream developers, usually it's like, "If you purchased the product after 04/01/2009, you are entitled to a free upgrade."
I understand this can be a loss of revenue for you guys, but at the same time, there are people like me out there that two weeks after buying the product find out there is a new version about to be released and has no free upgrade path. When I first heard (during my installtion) about the Beta, I was excited to see the new features and improvements that have been in development for so long. However, I would have waited to move forward with my purchase would I have known there was a cost involved.
I think that moving forward having a posted and updated Product roadmap will help customers avoid these problem; however, I think Open-E corporate should consider coming to terms with current customers that purchased during a defined time-frame. At least maybe offer a discounted rate of upgrade.
Just a suggestion.
Drew
I will add my 2 cents as well...
While I agree with all sides, I also have to side with Todd on this one. If you want to disagree with me, contact IBM, EMC or NetApp and get quotes for features to add new items. I have just spent the last year fighting with IBM regarding our DS6800, which, costed over $250k for less than 2TB of storage 5 years ago. I want to add a a new 4gb fiber channel, or an additional tray of disks. The quote I got back was over $25k for additional shelf, plus the $10k software upgrade to use the additional TB (yes, 1TB).
While this isn't exactly apples to apples, I would look at this as a fair comparison. The features the Open-E provides at a fraction of the costs is unmeasurable. If everything was free, then IBM, EMC, and NetApp would just keep rising their prices and keep development at a stand still. If it wasn't for solutions like open-e, openfiler, freenas you probably wouldn't see the upcoming evolution of solid state, FCoE, or even 10Gb iSCSI. The big boys have to keep up...competition drives innovation...'nuff said.
yes, I use DSS v5 only for 63 days !!!
:mad:
You said I need to buy v6 now ?!
Forget it!
I don't see why? A major update? Where is command line, webgui for setting users rights (ACL? your kidding...) and many other.
Yes, v6 give us a change in webgui, but I don't see (maybe just for me) a major improvment.
DSS is more like a NAS for newbie with a nice gui.
And for your bussines I think it was right to offer free upgrade for those who bought (like me) a product close to a "major" update!. Or simply warn us! I could wait, quietly...
I'm very dissapointed.
With the DSS V6 we will be able to provide new features that will only be available for DSS V6 like 16TB volumes replicated, new iSCSI Target "SCST", BackupExec, Thin provision, iSCSI backup functions, VTL and so many others that are not able to with DSS V5.
I agree with jsinclair to a certain extent, but as you said it's not apples to apples, we are talking about the difference between fortune 500 corporations and small business developers here.
Todd, I don't think it is fair for people to argue that there aren't new features to be excited about; as well, the new features that this upgrade will allow for in the near future. A lot of us in the community work for software developing companies and we understand what Open-E is going through.
However, going back to the timeframe and the lack of notification of a new version should tell you guys something. I don't expect you guys to back down, I just wanted to voice an opinion that I think is shared with some in this community.
Maybe you guys should really start offering support contracts that give users the ability to lock in upgrades for 1,2,3 years, this would help generate revenue and also allow people to have some peace of mind knowing they are safe for the life of the product roadmap. I know I would be willing to buy a support contract.
Mihai I don’t think that is a far statement what you say. I have seen the posts that Todd has provided for all to test and the date when they where to release this. Did you test V6, we did on 2 Intel boxes and we had no problem with ADS and the ACL’s - they even have this in the GUI and in the manual for they use POSIX as stated in the manual – RTFM “Read the fr#$@ manual”.Quote:
Originally Posted by mihai
We see what EMC, NetApp and others do that don’t warn us or give us a break in pricing, and let’s not forget what Mr. Microsoft will do to you as well.
If DSS is going to have like what Todd said for 16TB replications for volumes – then wow that is worth it!!
Do you know what the cost is for support for Openfiler for 16TB!! $1,800 in Euros PER NODE – meaning one system not 2!! Here is more good news for you that this is a yearly charge!! Wow now you pay more!! So we pay no support for DSS and it is a onetime charge for that version and the upgrade can’t be much more then the support cost. Not trying to kill you mihai but my god man when you look at what the costs are for the other competitors to what they are offering here it just sounds like a bunch of new engineers that just started in the industry.
We will be upgrading our DSS V5 to V6 ASAP!
Todd – Do you know what the cost is and when this will be available?
I don't think paying for V6 is that big a deal
Some of the companies that I have worked for before will do everything in thier power to not broadcast when the next big release will be.
If you have been surfing the forum, you would have seen posts about DSS V6 and knew something was up.
I have been using DSS for almost 2 years with free updates. (Autofailover was a biggie)
With some of the other software that I use. I need to pay every year.
try any antivirus program
Thanks guys for all your input. Truly if you knew how much hard work and dedication that went into this product this would not be an issue, but that is our pain.
If we gave it all for free then how to pay for development? Do we charge a yearly fee like Openfiler does?
So for DSS you pay the same as OpenFiler for 16TB support only - $1500 or more yearly but no upgrade costs. If that is the case then - COUNT ME IN :) we would make more money as DSS is less then this one time cost that is too low in comparison to the free products.
Ok I was dreaming too much..... But I think I may push for this business plan :).
I think symm and jason and rykerlee made some good points as they are from the enterprise side of things and the others are from a different side of the spectrum that also make a good point as well.
In a world of sw evolution no one will have the perfect answer and we will have to end this here and now and move onto more technical questions for others.
Thanks guys for all your input - PRO's or CON's :)
Sounds like a plan, on another note, I can't wait to get v6 up and running :)
I'm about to purchase another 16TB license by the end of the month. DSS is by far the best product out there that I have used.
I must unfortunately agree with the CON's.
We bought v5 in October 2008. Until now we was not able to put our 2 boxes into production. One bug follows the other. What will be in v6? Why should I spent again money for v6 starting the same problems with new features.
BUT: what we are willing to pay for is a support contract having reliable response times and bug fixing.
regards
I second mhubert here. Being able to purchase annual support with upgrades would be a good thing to have in the arsenal of products. I bet that there're more then a handful of customers who would purchase that.
Btw, I purchased my DSS5 licenses on 29th of april this year - this is less than 3 months!!
Cheers,
budy
Have to agree with Budy. To sustain ongoing support and development you have to sell some type of annual contract that includes updates. Without it you don't have recurring income and can't pay the troops. A lot of software vendors sell such yearly contracts for 10-20% of the full price. We want Open-E to stay around so a reasonable amount for 'update protection' would ensure that.
Trust me guys we are not making a killing here on revenue with a onetime purchase. Do your research with other big companies that are making the big $$ and they perform the annual service fee's. To me this would be nirvana to have this in place and maybe we do this new support plan as we are talking about and we would make more $$ and charge a yearly fee like $1,500 - though many would go ballistic over this and if we say ok then what about just giving it away for free! Think about it really hard and use your business sense here guys. If that is the case then we should be a nonprofit company and then let you develop the software (good luck and try supporting over 650 products- that will change your mind in a split second).
Now the problem comes into play here is what to do when we tell the other 1000,s of existing customers this new service plan that starts now and they come back and say - this is wrong I paid my onetime fee and I don't think this far!! Are you in a position to spend hours responding to their postings that cost me and others time and takes away from supporting other customers. You just don't spit out emails that fast - I do 90 sent emails daily plus many others not including the forum (very long hours guy's that many of you only do 10hr days), so I don't know if that will work.
As I stated in the previous posts, it is hard to please all 100% of your audience - so, how to do it?
I think for now we should move onto working on technical issues for others, unless there is more to beat up on this horse but I do like the input that all of you are providing. I just don’t think there will ever be a perfect answer here - I think it's been like this for 1000 of years with mankind (sorry had to bring old history politics :).
What you would need to do is issue an End-of-Life notification for all products beyond a certain version, then offer the ability for customers to purchase an extended service contract (like you do with the Lite version of the products). This is how you take care of the old customers that purchased under the one-time fee plan.
Here at our company, I would totally be willing to buy a DSS License for ~$1,000 USD and an addt'l support contract for like $250-350/year. If you can honestly say this would not result in increased revenue and the chance for explosive growth, I don't get it.
Assuming you get at least 30-40% of your existing user base to purchase the extended support contracts and then 100% of all new customers on the new plan with a supplement support contract you are talking some serious dollar signs here. You establish recurring revenue from a once dead user-base and you establish a new line of revenue for future sales. In 2 years, each customer has already paid for an additional license, thus you can issue free upgrades within the given support contract period. Even if you were to reduce the amount of new sales by a fraction, you are still seeing increased revenue on the front-end to compensate for it.
This is just my opinion and I am speaking for myself when I say I would be willing to pay for support.
Yes, from an end user this would be ok and easy but keep in mind we have partners and this might be very nasty for them. Ahh the balance is hard but I just like the idea of reoccurring revenue and if many of you believe this is the way to go then maybe create a 2 tier support pricing module. We have been talking about it but we are just too busy now to implement it and there are many things to consider. Keep them coming :).
I will be dropping off now on this topic but will be watching - I have to go back to work :).
Sorry to raise this again, but any thoughts for v5 product in the supply chain already (eg. stock held by resellers/distributers)?
We have a v5 DSS based storage system on the bench ready to be delivered now, & not too sure what to say to the customer when they visit the Open-E website & find their DSS version not actually listed. We can handle it, but if there was anything available for these cases, we would be keen to pass it on to them. Cheers.
Send email to info@open-e.com about this to see when they were purchased. We need to direct this the info team.
ok thank you.